Brzezinski to Ukrainian Deputy Larisa Skorik in 1992: Only 17 Million Ukrainians Should Remain

Translated by Ollie Richardson & Angelina Siard


“It’s time to finish with the anti-terrorist operation” — this thought, which was repeatedly repeated on talk-shows and in the media at the end of the last week, drawn as a conclusion from the statements of the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Mr. Turchynov and the head of power Mr. Poroshenko, stirred the country.

Because the termination of the anti-terrorist operation doesn’t assume at all that an end to the war in Donbass will come.

Just the opposite: everything only begins.

We will pass, so to speak, “to a new format of military operations, to use the army without a declaration of war and an anti-terrorist operation”.

This is what is written down in the bill on the reintegration of Donbass.

Probably we will know already soon what will pour out from it.

Brzezinski opened up

So what awaits us? — it is long overdue to listen to the opinion of a politician who colleagues once called “political Cassandra”, uncompromising and charismatic, who stood — in the direct sense of the word — at the roots of the creation of the State.

Larisa Skorik, the People’s Deputy of the 1st convocation, professor, the corresponding member of the Academy of Arts of Ukraine — she addressed on August 24th, 1991, parliamentarians with a short, but very intelligible speech, the sense of which — “stop the talking shop and vote for the Act of independence of Ukraine”.

“…When we declared Independent Ukraine, I in my most dreadful dream couldn’t imagine what will happen to it,” exclaims Larisa Skorik.

And if to trust her, and there is basis not to do this, then our near future is alas not joyful.

“Only enemies could organize such a sabbath in Kiev,” she said in an interview to our publication already three years ago. And now she states only with regret: “The sabbath continues, it has different modifications… And now a half of the country is in internal emigration”.

“…It started not in 2014, but much earlier. And was being prepared a very long time ago,” said Larisa Skorik, starting her monologue. “I remember very well my conversation with Zbigniew Brzezinski. It was in 1992. We communicated in the embassy — during reception, on the Independence Day of Poland. And at that time he told me such a phrase: ‘Europe won’t withstand more than 17 million Ukrainians’. While the question here was not about those who will leave Ukraine, but in general — about Ukrainians in Ukraine.

And already then I perfectly understood: they have such a position — the population of this country must be maximally reduced. In principle, it is possible to say that everything here was controlled from the onset.

By the way, in 1993 Brzezinski settled here also his son Ian. The latter worked also as an adviser to the government, in the National Security and Defense Council, in the banking system, in the Presidential Administration (now he is a senior research associate of the Brent Scowcroft Center on International Security)… He was quiet, red-haired, and looked young.

We spoke a lot at that time with Zbigniew Brzezinski, including about relations between Ukrainians and Poles… But the main thing that shook me — it is the figure ’17 million’! And then I told myself: ‘Well, here you opened up! While me, I was only suspicious about it’.

Then, when I remembered this conversation, I was convinced: indeed, everything goes according to plan! As it was conceived: an outflow of the best brains – already at the very beginning of independence – was ongoing! And very intensively.

While the others who remained – they after all are needed neither here nor there: why feed the pensioners? Why maintain and give some salaries to those who aren’t considered as the ‘best brains’?

And now there is also the ATO, where it is possible to kill the young and healthy under a hail of bullets! After all, they [Ukrainian authorities – ed] spit on the fact that mothers go crazy, receiving coffins. And some even can’t receive them, and don’t know if their children are alive. Horrible things are happening, but all of this could be foreseen.

The next phase of this infernal plan was in 2004: then, it is possible to say, the rehearsal of what we have now was taking place. And 13 years ago I precisely knew: it won’t stop at this, it will go on increasing further”.

The holy-truth of Franco

“It didn’t succeed in 2004,” continued Larisa Skorik, “because the members of the ‘orange‘ revolution gnawed away at each other. Nevertheless the country had a small hope for some exit.

But the exit turned out to be very temporary. According to the plan there was a need to bring Yanukovych to power to then quickly overthrow him. Those who did this perfectly implemented it, as it was planned!

And in 2014, there was, pardon me, a revolution that wasn’t at all a ‘revolution’ but an impudent coup for the purpose of the destruction of the State!

It is madly painful to speak about it, because I myself really am a statesperson. It is in my genes. My parents were statespeople. And me, being little, was taught that Ukraine has all opportunities to eventually one day become a State — together with big Ukraine.

If to count since my great-grandfathers, in Galicia I was already the fifth generation…

And my parents perfectly understood that small Galicia in itself doesn’t decide anything, while it has terrible ambitions. And what Franco wrote about Galicians is the holy-truth! Read his ‘Something about myself’ and you will be convinced of how much he was right.

I read it at 12 years of age, and I am hardened by those honest and wise words. Here is how he writes about the Galician contingent: ‘… I found so few characters among them, and so much littleness, rigid backwardness, duality, and arrogance that really doesn’t know why I should love them…’

Franco writes: ‘I don’t love Rusins…’ At that time all of them were Rusins, and not Ukrainians… But only these are not those Rusins that are in Zakarpatye, who are the remains of ancient rusich, but all the local population…

And so here are his words: ‘For what do I have to love them?.. This race is more weighty, clumsy, sentimental, devoid of hardening and strength of will, so little ability for political life on their own trash heap, but so fruitful for werewolves of many various varieties?’

And also my father told me about Dmowski (Roman Dmowski was considered as the political opponent of Józef Pilsudsky, and consistently supported the creation of a Polish national State). He knew him personally, in my opinion, they studied together… And so already in 1931 Roman Dmowski very accurately expressed his opinion concerning the possibility for Ukraine to become an independent State: ‘In this case it will become a cancer on the body of Europe’.

Dmowski’s prophecy

I will interrupt Larisa Skorik’s monologue to give the reader the chance to draw for themselves a conclusion from what the Polish politician said nearly 90 years ago.

The quote, maybe, is bulky, but my interlocutor considers that it’s as if Dmowski was looking into a crystal ball: He wrote what we actually now have.

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“There is no human power capable of stopping an independent Ukraine, torn from Russia, from becoming a playground for the criminal classes of the entire world, for whom there is very little room left in their own countries; capitalists in search of capital, industrialists, technicians, dealers, speculators, men of intrigue, and the initiators of every possible form of prostitution: Germans, French, Belgians, Italians, the English, the Americans—they would all find favor amongst the local Russians, Poles, Armenians, Greeks and, above all, amongst the most important of groups in Ukraine: the Jews. An independent Ukraine would pull in all of the powers of the world and rival the League of Nations for the amount of international interests that would swarm…

All of these dynamics, with help from the more clever and self-interested of the Ukrainians, would become the elite of the new nation-state.

It would be a unique elite, because no other country on Earth except for an independent Ukraine could claim for itself such an international motley crew of knaves.

Ukraine would become a cancer on all of Europe; those who would dream of creating a cultured, healthy and strong Ukrainian nation, able to mature within its own state, would soon find that instead of their own state, they actually live in an international corporation, and instead of healthy progress, they will be the victims of destruction and rotting.

He who believes that given Ukraine’s geography and its scope, and the state in which the Ukrainian element finds itself, with its spiritual and material resources, and above all given the role that the Ukrainian question plays in the global politics of the world—he who believes that things in Ukraine would develop otherwise than what I predict—does not have one single ounce of imagination.”

“But at that time when he wrote it,” continued Mrs. Skorik, “he didn’t mean Galicia. Then it was a part of Poland. He spoke about the present central and eastern parts of our country… But it is from the lips of someone who was born, i.e. the primordial, authentic Pole! And he warned: if Ukraine wants to leave an environment of interaction with Russia, it will enter the abyss. Because it will turn into a cancer on the body of Europe, where speculators of all colors will rush.

And it happened exactly like that,” said Larisa Skorik. “But a quarter of the century ago it was the outcome that I was afraid of the most… I understood: there is a need to build the State very carefully so that, God forbid, it isn’t thrown towards ‘harakiri’.

After all, before all of this — nearly eight centuries of such power, as Ukraine didn’t exist, let’s already call a spade a spade. There was Russia — big and multi-profile… And only then, as they say, our country also started to ‘hatch’.”

Three birth marks

“…Declaring independence, I was sure,” continued Larisa Skorik, “that nevertheless some instinct of self-preservation will awaken inside these people and its so-called pseudo-elite in the name of the existence of this State. Even if some wanted to have it only with a mercantile motive in order to be a ‘rich man’, impossible to be tamed by anything and anyone, and others — in the name of feeling their own ego.

It was supposed that each citizen will at least love this State. But in order for that to happen, there was a need to create for these people such conditions that wouldn’t avert them from the country.

And for me it was very important at this moment: how will the appeal to the East of Ukraine come across? I worked in Donbass, I know perfectly well just how wonderful human manpower is there, with lots of personality, of a high, and not at all devious vintage, unlike in my beloved Galicia.

And so it was important for me that the part of the population that lives in the East [Donbass – ed] and considers the Russian language as native, having the full right for do this, also loves the Ukrainian language. Not through pressure, not through brute force, but simply like that — because the Ukrainian reality will seem to them comfortable both spiritually and physically.

I considered that the greatest attention and love is needed to be given to those people who never especially raved about the idea of an independent State, but who were ready to receive it. So give them this chance, without taking away from them what they want to keep in their soul!

They accepted this country, they already positively relate to it… But no! ‘Tomorrow you will speak only in Ukrainian, otherwise…!’ [Ukrainian power imposed the Ukrainian language on Donbass – ed]. In what Ukrainian?! In this one, which our journalists express themselves in?! I can’t hear this language, because it is ragulian [raguli = rural folk – ed], Zhlobian, to the point of inconceivability!…

You know what prevails in us? Three heavy ‘birth marks’: envy, villainy, and ‘betrayal’. All of this pursues us from generation to generation. And God, seeing this, sends us trials, assuming that we, perhaps, will get rid of these defects. But we are not able.

And, besides all of this, there is something else — a deep feeling of deficiency. I can’t understand why. But it exists, probably, from ethnos.

My family lived not in the best conditions, even in very heavy and difficult ones, but I’ve never had a complex. I knew perfectly well that if I want to be engaged in my profession, I will do it, and will work very well, and will study because it is necessary, and it is interesting to me. And nobody will be able to take me away from this path.

But very many have a terribly cracked base, where complexes reside. It forces them to hate someone, to blame them for their own failures… For example, who is guilty now according to them? Russia and Putin.

It is precisely these complexes that demand that they call Adam and Eve Ukrainians, and Jesus Christ — a Guzul.

People became so stupid that, in my opinion, already they don’t need themselves, and the country is actually involved in suicide”.

Khmelnytsky’s back

I don’t know how ‘correct’ the monument to Khmelnytsky in Kiev on Sofiyevskaya Square, stands concerning the necessary ‘position’ vis-a-vis Moscow, but here in Chernigov literally the other day the money from the city budget was spent to turn the sculpture 180 degrees so that from now it faces away from the Kremlin. You, as a politician or architect, what do you think — will this act affect something? Will it reflect on the welfare of citizens, will it awaken in them love towards the State?” Larisa Skorik was asked.

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“In principle the majority of citizens already before — in a political sense — showed themselves to be scarily degenerative, but now — even more so! And with these ‘turns’ of monuments, in my opinion, they don’t even understand that they shame both themselves and the country.

And its unlikely that they realize that the world looks at them, excuse me, like a lost cause,” said Mrs. Skorik. “Perhaps indeed we went crazy..? In every society 20-25% are mentally ill persons, while here this figure is much higher.

In fact, Ukraine now is reminiscent of a huge lunatic asylum that all hospital attendants run away from. All the patients-psychopaths remain, who are engaged in arranging this psychiatric hospital according to their understanding of how things must be.

The most terrible thing is that for those who conceived ‘the plan for Ukraine’ — which I spoke about at the beginning of this conversation — it is very favorable for them that people with certain mental deviations found themselves in power. Because only such people can be controlled! It’s horrible, but I don’t see an exit…”

Well why? Now the country lives in anticipation of a loud process: the trial of Yanukovych under the article on high treason. A political scientist even said that when we will render a verdict, ‘we all clean ourselves of filth’, and the whole world will learn that severe punishment awaits traitors in Ukraine. And that society, probably, will change.

“Just think: they want to persuade citizens that the latter live crappy only because ‘Yanukovych robbed them’! Well, what else can they say? That he ‘betrayed’ them? Interestingly, in what? Why did they seize him like that? Because he didn’t want to shed blood and didn’t give the order to the army to shoot at these barbarians? This is his ‘treachery’?

In the fact that he was saving his life and his relatives when there was no other exit?” continued Larisa Skorik. “Because the Germans, French, and Poles guaranteed him immunity. Even through they promised that he will remain in his position up to early elections.

It turns out that he was so naive that he trusted them! And I understood immediately that they will abandon him! Because it was initially conceived like that. But Yanukovych didn’t understand political intrigues, he in general didn’t understand anything about it.

While now here there are loads and loads of ‘enemies of the people’. Those who are still capable of feeling something, for who it is painful that ‘leaders’ slowly, but surely push the country on the way of genocide.

It isn’t obligatory for them to shoot all ‘enemies’: some can be sent to war, some can simply be killed slowly due to the impossibility to receive medical treatment, some receive a pension, to support a family, and simply through the impossibility to live in general.

Any people who at least respect themselves a little, I’m not even speaking about the nation, it doesn’t behave like this in order to suffer all of this silently… It defends itself. It tries to save children, grandchildren — those who will come after them.

And what do we have? They are madly joyful about the visa-free regime, they are happy about how quickly they will now go to Portugal to gather strawberries and will earn something there, while the Motherland will in fact remain ‘naked’.

It means that there is no country, no people, no State, and no prospects. It means that Brzezinski told the truth: everything happens exactly for this purpose.

Yes, times are not the same as before, around the world the economic condition started to erode. But to destroy like it’s being done here and how — is it imaginable? To ruin the Antonov plant, to do such things with Yuzhmash..!

And at the same time to listen to Geoffrey Ross Pyatt (ambassador of the United States of America in Ukraine from 2013 to 2016), who dictated that we have to become a superagrarian country. Also it is with that Republic — I mean the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which for the level of industrialization actually was among the most industrialized powers of Europe!”

Zhvanetsky’s “crème fraîche”

“The level of freedom that exists now is unprecedented… Never for all its history did Ukraine have such a level concerning civil society,” said Petro Poroshenko not so long ago. And soon — at the suggestion of the adviser to the minister of the Ministry of Internal Affairs Mr. Shkiryak — the blocking of VKontakte and Odnoklassniki followed. Now they are planning to block another 20 sites… If this is a victory, then what is a defeat?

“Well this is how we live — with such prospects… And — with Zoryan Shkiryak. While the site ‘Mirotvorets’ prospers…! Can someone imagine something similar appearing during the Soviet power? This is a jurisdictional matter! It it is possible for things like this to jail all initiators and performers. But the site is replenished with new names of the ‘untrustworthy’, of the ‘enemies of the people’. And this is considered as a patriotic gesture! How in general it is possible to build a State where people initially want to be divided and where everyone denounces each other? My God, about what do we speak? What prospects can there be for such a misfortune that is called Ukraine?!”

Always there is a zone where the patience of people can burst…

“Well there is no zone! They will push whilst there is something to push. And when they will stop, it will indeed turn out that in the country there are 17 million people. Or a little bit less.”

Soon the Rada will leave for the holidays. And probably parliamentary oppositionists will manage to react to the revelations of Skorik. I have no doubt that there will be calls from familiar Deputies, they will say: why is Larisa Skorik so pessimistic about the future? We, on the contrary, have optimism – we prepare for elections, we lift the electorate… ‘Fatherland’ already erected tents, even if it is for another occasion.

“There is no opposition in parliament! I know very well what they breathe and what is in their minds… You remember what Zhvanetsky said? ‘What you call ‘crème fraîche’, isn’t crème fraîche’. And it’s the same. What is called ‘opposition’ here, isn’t opposition. How they sold out unfortunate Yanukovych, at this time being in his party.

Well, lets leave the opposition alone. But I can’t help but take an interest in your opinion about Ukrainian-Polish relations. Especially after the same called the actions of OUN-UPA against Poles in 1943-1945 crimes and genocide, while our Deputies in the Rada wrote to the Sejm their rebuff. You probably communicated after this with Polish politicians in an informal situation: how did they perceive this “rebuff”?

“No self-respecting society — and I speak about citizens of this country — will begin to extol local pseudo-heroes to a rank of nationwide ones. At least because… Will it help people to become cleverer, more cultured? Will it teach them something? Will it unite the country? Will it help the building of the State? Not at all!”

Maybe not via renamings, but via some actions, some Deputies consider that it is rather possible to unite the country, for example, by a feeling of tolerance. I mean here the recent gay parade that took place here in Kiev — and then commentators expressed the opinion: apparently we passed the examination on “Europeanness”.

“One more confirmation that they lost their mind.”


Even though you consider that opposition in Rada doesn’t exist, nevertheless one of the opponents of the Bloc of Petro Poroshenko told me such a phrase: “God loves Trinity. We did two revolutions, so will also do a third one, and with the same interval”. I.e. if the first one is 2004, the second is 2014, is the third one in 2024? Or are the first two dates a pure coincidence?

“Not at all a coincidence! Everything is right: every 10 years the generation grows up, which has no concept about what happened earlier. And for 7, 8, 9, and even 10 year-old children it is very possible to condition their brain, to teach them how it will be good when they do this and that… And when children will grow up into 17, 18, 20-year-olds, that’s when they will become the new driving force. The guys in 2014 who were shot in the back by snipers after all also helped this sabbath to come to power, so that the latter can now mock the people.”

This means that 2024 is a correct calculation?

“I don’t think that it will happen soon. They — I mean all who are called the ‘political elite’ — were so bound together, so that no conflicts will divide them in the ‘terrarium’. They were weaved into a ball like snakes. In order to divide them there is a need to cut off either heads or tails… But who will do it? Who will begin to sponsor something similar to the ‘revolution’ or ‘Maidan’, call it as you wish… Who will create the leader of 100 people, to bring people out to the streets, who will eventually pay for it?

Look at the mess that is now in America! Just because the one who came to power is not the one who did the revolution here [in Ukraine – ed]. Yes, very many are interested in this territory! And why would it be the contrary? On the one hand, it is possible to still rob, this time to the last thread. On the another hand — to make a training ground for attacks on Russia. It is very profitable, plus it isn’t especially expensive.”

I’d like to finish this conversation somehow slightly more joyfully. Here, for example, maybe weak, but nevertheless there is hope that early elections in the Rada this year will take place… And then maybe also presidential ones.

“Elections will happen exactly as it was planned. Remember that during presidential ones in 2014 everyone foreknew that, firstly, there will be the 1st round, and secondly, that Poroshenko will gain 54.7%. The next story will be just the same… If, of course, we will hold on till then.”

Very optimistic.

“No, of course, something can change but only in case God’s providence wants to talk some sense into this people. Although… it’s not for nothing that it is said: if God wants to punish, he takes away the mind. So, it means there is something to punish us for.”

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